ESA audio recordings: Did Hoban answer and does it matter either way?

Audio anywhere: This image proves that Atos assessors can use their own laptop computers to create audio recordings of work capability assessments. They can then use onboard software to burn a CD of the interview and hand it to claimants on the spot. What's the problem?

Audio anywhere: This image proves that Atos assessors can use their own laptop computers to create audio recordings of work capability assessments. They can then use onboard software to burn a CD of the interview and hand it to claimants on the spot. What’s the problem?

He did – and some of the responses were actually encouraging. Most were questionable – meaning, it seems, the government will continuing trying to obstruct attempts to make the assessment process more open.

Those of you who read yesterday’s article will know that the adjournment debate in the House of Commons yesterday was about the audio recording of work capability assessments, which are made as part of the claim process for Employment and Support Allowance.

The government has claimed that, when the service was offered in a pilot scheme, too few people requested it, and only one per cent of them wanted a copy of the recording that was made – but Sheila Gilmore MP, in her speech, pointed out that Atos, the company running the hated assessments, said enough requests had been made to make it desirable. She also pointed out that the procedure for getting a personal copy of the recording was extremely bureaucratic and off-putting.

She asked five questions about the issue and, in an unusual but welcome move, ensured that employment minister Mark Hoban had advance notice of them, thereby offering him no excuse for failure to answer.

In the main, he did. But… well, you’ll see.

Hoban prefaced his responses by affirming that the DWP considers the issue to be important, something that “we must get it right. It accords firmly with our commitment to improving the WCA process continuously”.

But he said: “While we accept that there has been an increase in demand for its use, we must be sure that we understand the evidence base, including that relating to the value to claimants… The evidence needs to be balanced against potential costs, and that is the process in which my officials are currently engaged.”

We’ll go into those extra costs in a moment, but the comment begs an obvious question: Wouldn’t the extra cost be offset by the savings made by having fewer ESA appeal tribunals?

Later he confirmed that a claimant has no legal right to an audio-recorded assessment, and neither the DWP nor Atos Healthcare has a legal obligation to provide an audio-recording service or equipment. “The unavailability of audio recording facilities does not mean that the WCA process can be delayed indefinitely. That could slow down the process unnecessarily.” But he added that, since the introduction of audio recording, only nine requests have been refused owing to the unavailability of equipment.

He said (but the statement is disputable): “All those having face-to-face assessments have been able to request that their sessions be recorded… Claimants can ask for their assessments to be recorded, either by means of the service offered by the Department for Work and Pensions and Atos Healthcare or through the use of their own recording equipment. Requests for an audio recording, whether through the use of Atos Healthcare’s equipment or through the use of equipment provided by a claimant, must be made in advance when a face-to-face assessment is arranged. The purpose of that is to provide adequate notice so that recording equipment can be made available and ready for use.”

This is not what I have found. Long-term readers will know that my partner, the long-suffering Mrs Mike, suffers from a long-term ailment and has undergone the work capability assessment. It took place in early July last year – remember the date. I went with her.

We were not informed of the procedure for requesting audio recordings in any way. I went along with my dictaphone, but when we announced our intention to use it, we were told that would not be acceptable and the assessment would not take place if we insisted on this condition.

Therefore it occurs to me (admittedly from anecdotal evidence) that Hoban’s figures must be skewed. How many claimants found themselves in the same position when they arrived for interview – ready to record – only to have the carpet pulled out from under them? For a disabled person, the only option then is to continue with the assessment because – for many of them, it is a very difficult and painful process simply to reach an assessment centre.

Let’s look at the questions. The first was this: Will the Minister now accept that the number of claimants requesting a copy of their recording is not an accurate reflection of demand, and that the number of people acquiescing to their assessment being recorded is a more appropriate metric to use?

Hoban’s response: “I do not think that it was that difficult to get hold of a copy. The recording might need to be held on a handheld device before it is transferred to a computer and a transcript is printed, but that does not stop people asking for a copy. I thought that was one point in the hon. Lady’s thoughtful speech that was not well substantiated.”

This is inaccurate. For those who have never attended a work capability assessment, the Atos assessors complete them using laptop computers – because the assessment is a tick-box test that demands simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answers. Laptops generally come with not only audio recording but also CD burning programs as part of the package, and even if they don’t, freeware recording software is widely available and CD-burning software is also available, if not for free, then for a reasonable price. If the onboard microphones aren’t adequate to the task, it is possible to buy them very cheaply – especially if buying in bulk.

In short, it should be entirely possible to record every single assessment at a reasonably high quality, burn it onto CD and hand it to claimants on the spot. For example, I have an audio copy of yesterday evening’s debate which I can burn off and hand to anybody who wants it for reference. There is no justification for the bureaucratic process through which the DWP currently demands claimants to navigate, which is – as Ms Gilmore noted – off-putting.

Hoban continued: “The results also provided little evidence that audio recording of face-to-face assessments improved the quality of assessments. There was only limited evidence of improvement in the customer experience for some individuals.”

SOME individuals? We must question these ministers’ use of language and that word is telling.

“Of those who took part, fewer than half the claimants thought that audio recording would be helpful to them.”

How were they to know? Did they expect to have to go to appeal and use it to persuade a tribunal? Were they even made aware that this could happen?

“Those are the key areas that Professor Harrington wanted to understand when he called for the original pilot. As a result the Department decided not to introduce audio recording of face-to-face assessments universally on the basis that a facility for all assessments would be extremely costly, with no apparent substantial benefit or improvement in the quality of assessments.”

Not true.

“Since the introduction of a limited audio recording facility in September 2011, fewer than 4,000 claimants have requested a recorded assessment. To date, Atos has conducted more than 2,000 audio-recorded assessments.”

So almost half those who requested a recording were refused it, despite that fact that using laptops to record assessments is cheap and easy?

“During that period almost 1.5 million face-to-face assessments for both ESA and incapacity benefit reassessments have been completed. Therefore, the proportion of recorded assessments is less than 0.2% of all assessments carried out during the period. We need to continue to monitor that take-up, but universal recording for such low numbers does not seem prudent and might not provide value for money.”

Not (provably) true.

We move on to the second question. I give you advance warning that the reply is scandalous: Can the Minister confirm whether any official DWP communications inform claimants that they can have their assessment recorded?

His response was to say that the DWP has recently provided more information about the audio-recording facility on the ‘Inside Government’ section of the website. recently? Two years after the option was made available?

And he said: “I am pleased to say that we are … taking steps to boost awareness of audio recording. The Department and Atos are in the process of amending written communications to claimants by updating the WCA AL1C form. The document is sent to claimants when they need to arrange a face-to-face assessment and will provide more information on how to arrange an audio-recorded assessment. We expect the revised form to be sent out to claimants by the end of next month, once the necessary changes have been made and the form has been cleared for use.”

Sheila Gilmore rightly took issue with this, demanding: “Perhaps the Minister might be able to explain why it has taken nearly two years to make that amendment?”

Even if he was, he didn’t.

She also raised the issue of timing, which the DWP frequently uses to skew its statistics: “If I understood him correctly, he said that the evaluation of all this process was being extended to the end of the summer, so if the revised letter is not going out until the end of this month or the end of next month, there will be very little time to judge whether that has made any difference.”

Absolutely correct. This is how the DWP produces many of the figures it uses to hoodwink Parliament and the general public. If a procedure has been available for 24 months, but official documentation has publicised that to claimants for just two or three months, then the results are unreliable.

You will, undoubtedly, be on tenterhooks to know what Hoban had to say about this.

He said nothing.

Question three: Can he indicate how many audio recording devices Atos now have access to?

Yes he can. The total is a staggering 31 audio recording machines, three of which are currently being repaired – so 28 functioning machines. Atos also has access to 21 cassette machines which are on loan from the DWP.

“We constantly monitor the updating of audio recording assessments to ensure that the supply of the equipment meets demand,” said Hoban. Utterly ridiculous, for the reasons already outlined.

Question four: Can he confirm that what few recordings currently occur are part of a wider rollout or a mere further pilot?

This was the question he did not answer.

Finally: Will he accept Professor Harrington’s call for more work to be done on this? And will he rerun the pilot using the level of successful appeals as the key metric in determining whether or not audio recordings improve the quality of assessments?

It seems that he did! “we have decided to extend the evaluation period until the end of the summer to allow us to gather additional data on quality and potential take-up for a subsequent robust decision on any potential future audio-recording provision.

“We now have a benchmark for current take-up but, as has been rightly pointed out, we cannot get a true comparison until we routinely let people know about its availability.”

So what are we to make of these responses?

They’re a mixed bag. There is no excuse for failure to make recordings and hand them over to claimants on the day – that is glaringly obvious and the most scandalous part of this affair. Thanks to computer technology, it is cheap, easy and available. Considering the size of the DWP and the number of assessors employed by Atos, it is inconceivable that nobody was aware of this and therefore we must conclude that the failure to offer the service is an attempt to obstruct transparency by the DWP and its ministers.

There is also no excuse for the almost-two-year delay in revising DWP correspondence to make it clear that audio recording is available to anybody who wants to request it. In fact, because it should be possible to use assessors’ laptops to make those recordings, it is entirely possible to argue that they should offer it verbally at the start of the assessment procedure.

The extension of the evaluation period is to be welcomed – but the brevity of the extension is to be lamented and the “benchmark” data being used to judge the evaluation are entirely questionable.

As ever, with this Coalition government, any dialogue over its procedures is a war of attrition. This issue is not buried yet, and the debate was useful in teasing out the details.

The best we can say for the moment is that this is TO BE CONTINUED…


  1. Susanne Deumig June 13, 2013 at 2:17 pm - Reply

    Mark Hoban did his best to discredit any calls for audio recording assessments stating poor pilot results and the cost of providing the recording equipment.

    He also said, that whilst a claimant may ask for a recording, neither ATOS nor the DWP are obligated to provide the recording, and lack of recording facilities cannot be a reason for delaying an assessment. That is all well and good when there are less than 50 machines available for 11,000+ assessments per week.

    I wish the Government would finally treat us disabled people honestly and fairly!!

  2. Keith June 13, 2013 at 6:07 pm - Reply

    That smell of sh*te there – that’s Hoban’s aftershave right!?

    The point about recording is that it should be really done with the kind of tamper-proof double-deck machine they have in police interviews, and that is what they have among their handful of current units.

    The laptop isnt going to have this, and could take 5 – 10 minutes to burn the interview – and time is profit.

    BUT there is NO EXCUSE!
    How much are ATOS the killer IT firm being paid?
    They should have these machines like the police do!

    Nah – the point is that those Tory mother****ers in the DWP don’t WANT assessments recorded precisely because that would make them fair.

  3. Workhouse June 13, 2013 at 6:26 pm - Reply

    Hoban said that anyone being interviewed can use their own equipment, while conveniently forgetting to mention that the recording equipment, used by a claimant must meet ATOS requirements. I can not find anywhere a list of these requirements. I did find however find a list of unacceptable equipment, these include, laptops, mp3 recorders and mobile phones, as these have the ability to edit the recording. Also in order for the claimant to recorder their own assesment, they must supply the Atosser with an identical copy at the end of the interview. This means expensive not readily available equipment for the claimant. I pray nightly for a plague of a thousand locusts to infest the underwear of Hoban, Mcvey, Fraud and Dungcan Snifffy.

  4. Gordon Chubb June 13, 2013 at 10:21 pm - Reply

    Free software and easy to use for recording called Audacity (

    Free CD burning software

    A quick check on Amazon found 100 blank CDs for £15.70 Im sure Atos could get a better deal on Bulk orders.

    Laptop already supplied


    • Mike Sivier June 13, 2013 at 10:52 pm - Reply

      Or, as they probably still say in Eton and at Oxbridge, QED.

      Workhouse commented earlier that there are quality control issues around ensuring that nobody can tamper with recordings but I’ve been thinking about this and the argument is clearly nonsense. If the Atos assessor makes a recording using approved equipment – AND THEN TAKES THE EQUIPMENT AWAY BEFORE CREATING A COPY FOR THE CLAIMANT, who’s to say that Atos or the DWP won’t tamper with it themselves? The DWP already has a reputation for dishonesty and Atos, as an employee, would have to do as it was told.

      The easy, no-nonsense answer is to record using a laptop, with a timecheck at start and finish of the assessment so that the length of the recording provides your answer about whether anybody has tampered with it or not. In practice, it would be impossible because the recording would go straight onto disc, while the claimant was still in the room.

  5. fkreid June 14, 2013 at 12:39 am - Reply

    Just to point out some numbers:
    Hoban stated after saying there is no legal right to a recording, only nine cases have been refused because no equipment was available.
    Later the figure for recorded assessments is 2000 out of 4000.
    I consider myself to be reasonably good at arithmetic so:
    This is obviously as true as a Tory.
    Good job he’s not minister for education.
    Minister for mumbling weasel words more like.
    He’s another on my expanding list of backpfeifengesicht
    I think their plan to stop all appeals will be the final puff of logic:
    If you get to the appeals stage they’ll say:
    You’ve managed to jump through all the hoops we’ve put in your way so you must be fit enough for work QED
    (Now p%ss of and die!)

    • Mike Sivier June 14, 2013 at 12:54 am - Reply

      You’re absolutely right about the numbers discrepancy. I must be going senile to have missed it!

  6. Sasson June 14, 2013 at 9:52 am - Reply

    I had my first ESA assessment in January 2010. Because of hearing how assessors were ticking ‘yes’ on their computers to an answer you gave as ‘no’, when I received my assessment date I telephoned the DWP to ask if I could record my assessment. They warned me that they then would have to read a script regarding this, which basically said that I must use a professional person to record the session along with professional equipment, and I was to put this request in writing. I must also telephone my Atos centre and make a personal request to the healthcare professional who would conduct my assessment, and a copy of the recording had to be done in their presence with no editing.

    From research back then, I knew that I had a legal right to have my assessment recorded, but the biggest stumbling block for people was that this recording had to be produced by a professional. That’s why they won’t allow people to bring in their own recording equipment. I am amazed though that people in government still give the impression that it is not a person’s right; as far as I know, the law has not changed since the coalition came to power. The issue rather seems to be about the cost to the government if it became their responsibility to record these sessions.

    The good thing was that I was not only a professional in that I had a dual honours music/music technology degree, but that I also had the professional sound programmes and the equipment, so they could not refuse my request, although they did try to wangle out of it on the day.

    Apparently, when I turned up for the assessment, I was told that the staff were excited because no one had ever done this before, but that no doctor wanted to be a ‘star’ that day and be recorded. I reminded them that I had fulfilled the criteria, and that they could not refuse my request by law. I had to wait 2 1/2 hours for them to find someone to conduct my assessment. The doctor who did, laughably asked for a chaperone of all things and the kind receptionist offered to be the chaperone.

    The assessment went very well, but back then, the assessments took an hour, and then you were supposed to go onto the second part of the assessment. The receptionist informed me whilst I was making copies of the CD that they had decided to call me back at a later date for the second part because it was just too long for some people.

    2 weeks later I found out that I was to be put into the support group. I am absolutely sure that the only reason that this happened was because of the recording. There would in fact be no need for a recording if we could trust the healthcare ‘professionals’ to tick ‘yes’ on their computer programme rather than ‘no’, but we need these recordings because of their corrupt and unfair practices.

    I encourage everyone to endeavor to find a professional to record their assessment for them. It isn’t cheap, but many small sound recording businesses, especially when the majority of their work comes from doing the sound in night clubs for example, are generally free during the day and you can book their service for perhaps around £30-£40 per hour. It is well worth the sacrifice to do so.

    I will say though that it is not easy being recorded! It can be very nerve wracking, and you need to be clear in your own mind what you are going to say about your work capability or lack of it. I was used to it having been in a band and been recorded many times but it was still very difficult to do.

    I’m in the reassessment phase at present and indicated on my form that I would apply to record the session again. That was in January and we’re now in June but I still haven’t heard anything about my assessment date. I need new sound software now however, which could cost me dearly, and I just haven’t the money now with paying so much for my care. So we’ll see how I go on without the equipment; I’m sure I won’t be successful!

  7. murray June 14, 2013 at 5:06 pm - Reply

    Has it escaped the attention of people that Atos are a major IT company,and that they are in a position to record and copy any interview,at very little cost to themselves. Recording assessments are obviously againsr DWP policy,and therefor only happen rarely.

  8. rainbowwarriorlizzie June 15, 2013 at 9:17 am - Reply

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