31st July 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – Emergency Episode Minister

Presented by Emma Tracey

EMMA-               Hello. I’m Emma Tracey, and this is an extra episode of the Access All podcast because we got an opportunity to speak to Sir Stephen Timms, the minister of state for disability and social security. I spoke to him  a little bit earlier; here’s that interview now. I’ll be back after this:

I have with me the minister of state for disability, health and work, Sir Stephen Timms. You’re very welcome to Access All.

STEPHEN-          Thank you for having me.

EMMA-               Well, thank you for being here in the studio with me. I suppose it would be good to start by saying what does the minister of state for disability, health and work do? What’s your remit?

STEPHEN-          The minister for disability and social security is the formal title. So, I’m responsible for government policy on disability and on working age social security benefits, Universal Credit, disability benefits of course, Personal Independence Payment, and the others. And as minister for disability I chair the cross-government meeting of the lead ministers for disability. We have a lead minister in every government department and we meet regularly, and so talk about policy across government that affects disabled people.

EMMA-               Let’s just talk a bit about the last few months, the Pathways to Work consultation paper came out, the bill, the Personal Independence Payments, Universal Credit bill came out. It’s been a bit messy and a bit emotional. There’s been a lot of heartache, a lot of fear, a lot of anger, not least in the House of Commons around this. Do you have any regrets about how it all played out?

STEPHEN-          Well, there’s certainly been lots of debate, as you say, in parliament and outside parliament. And I think a lot of MPs had representations from their constituents expressing concerns about some of the things that were in the proposals to begin with. We listened to those concerns and, as you know, there was a proposal in what was originally called the Universal Credit and Personal Independence bill to limit eligibility for Personal Independence Payment to people who had four points on at least one of the daily living activities in Personal Independence Payment.

EMMA-               And that’s changed now.

STEPHEN-          And that particular proposal gave rise to a lot of concern, so we decided not to go ahead with that; instead to set up a full review of the PIP assessment, which I will lead, that we’ll co-produce with disabled people, disability organisations.

EMMA-               What does co-production mean to you?

STEPHEN-          It means that we are going to be taking a lead from disabled people and representatives of disabled people in this work over the next year or so. And what we’re actually doing over the summer we’re going to be planning in detail how that process will be taken forward. What I envisage is there will be a fairly small group of ten people, something like that, who will work very closely with me as the minister for the period of this review, and they will have a lot of say and a lot of sway over the form that the recommendations emerge in.

EMMA-               Who?

STEPHEN-          Well, we haven’t yet worked out who it’s going to be.

EMMA-               Who might it be do you think? Have you an idea?

STEPHEN-          Well, that’s what we’ve got to reflect on over the summer. I’m going to be talking to disability organisations, I mean, I do talk regularly to them of course, but I’ll be talking specifically about this point so that we can set out in the detail both the process and how it’s going to work.

EMMA-               The amount of fear and anxiety around the time of the bill debates and disabled people having their say, are you concerned that that will cause any issues within the review of Personal Independence Payments, which of course is the non-means tested benefit for disabled people designed to cover some of the extra costs of being disabled? I mean, one of the words around co-production is valued and having people’s views valued. Do you worry the fear and there’s maybe a bit more mistrust in a government that disabled people were banking on to help them through this and to do benefits a bit differently?

STEPHEN-          I think there’s been a lot of relief that that initial proposal is not being taken forward. I think people are pleased about that, and I understand why. What we’ve seen is an example of democracy doing what it’s supposed to do: people express their concern to their MPs, the MPs express those concerns in parliament, and the policy’s changed as a result. I think that’s a positive example that we need now to build on in taking forward this review.

EMMA-               But it did upset a lot of people along the way, didn’t it, minister?

STEPHEN-          There certainly was a lot of anxiety, yes, about what that would have done.

EMMA-               Yeah. The review itself what if it’s found by disabled people involved in it that people need more Personal Independence Payments and more people need it? You’re still looking to make cuts, aren’t you?

STEPHEN-          Well, no. The review exercise that we’re undertaking is not designed to deliver spending cuts. I mean, we will certainly have to operate within the current projections for what spending is going to be.

EMMA-               And will you not be under a lot of pressure? I mean, there’s still cuts needing to be made. They wanted to make 5 billion, they’re not going to make that now. Obviously they’ll look at other ways of making them. But will you not be under a lot of pressure in this?

STEPHEN-          This review is not intended to deliver cuts. I think it’s quite important that that is well understood because I don’t think some of the people who we need to be involved in the review would be if they thought that that’s what it was for.

EMMA-               One of the thing about the bill that is going ahead, the Universal Credit element and the health element of Universal Credit, I’ve spoken to learning disability charities over the last few days in preparation to speaking to you and they’re really, really worried about new claimants of the health benefit, the health element even, and how they’re going to manage on £47 less per week than current claimants when they’re already really struggling to make ends meet. And a report that was published on your own government website on 17th July said that 39% of households with a disabled person are struggling to meet basic needs financially. So, how can you justify that and how will they cope?

STEPHEN-          Well, the key change we want to make is to increase the number of disabled people in work. We’ve still got in the UK a lower employment rate than we had before the pandemic. And we’re unique in the G7 in that respect. This is specifically a UK problem that we have to fix. We’ve got to open up the opportunity of employment for many more people. I’ve spoken to many people with a learning disability who are desperate to be in a job. I’ve seen some great examples of support being provided to make work possible for people with a learning disability. And we’ve now secured a commitment to £3.8 billion over the lifetime of this parliament to invest in employment support, to open up the opportunity of work for hundreds of thousands of people I hope who haven’t been able to work up till now, who’ve been on health and disability benefits who desperately want to work. Many of them say they could be in a job now if they had the support to make it possible for them. And we’re determined to give them that chance.

EMMA-               But that’s really interesting because that money has been pulled forward, it was supposed to be spent much later in the decade. And Michael Buchanan, BBC journalist, wrote an article not that long ago saying that someone in the DWP said that there was no pace or passion to make this employment support work, there weren’t enough people on it, it wasn’t ready. How are you going to get those people into work? How are you going to move that forward at the speed at which you want to?

STEPHEN-          Well, it certainly wasn’t me that said that; there’s plenty of pace and passion where I am in the department and amongst the people that I’m working with. We’re absolutely determined…

EMMA-               It’s a very tough job though.

STEPHEN-          It is a tough job, and we are in a very difficult situation to still be all these years after the pandemic stopped, still have a lower employment rate than we had before the pandemic, when every other big industrialised country in the world has got back at least to where they were before. It shows how badly wrong the system has gone in the UK. We’ve got to put it right.

EMMA-               We heard a lot of talk about cart before the horse when this bill was being debated. Some of your other reports that were also released on the government’s website on 17th July talked about the numbers of disabled people on waiting lists for health conditions. And there was even an article in BBC News this week about someone who’s been in bed for seven months because they’re not getting what they need, they’re disabled and they’re really, really struggling. And the BBC said they’ve had over 250 families get in touch with them because they’re struggling to get the health and care. Should that not have been worked on harder before changing benefits and trying to have conversations with disabled people and move disabled people, get the disabled people the onus on them to get back into work?

STEPHEN-          No, I don’t think we should be waiting to give opportunities to disabled people. I agree with you, we do need to put the health service right. We’re making a very big investment, £26 billion this year in the NHS. The other thing we need to improve though is the housing situation. There’s a huge amount this government has got to do, but I don’t agree that we should wait to fix the benefits system until all these other things are put right. We’ve got to move forward and make progress on all of them at the same time. And that’s what we’re doing.

MUSIC-               We’re not just a podcast. Find Access All on social media and read our articles on the BBC News website.

EMMA-               Will we talk about Access to Work? It’s a government scheme designed to cover the extra costs of being disabled at work. The Disability Rights UK called it in its current form a shambles and is letting thousands of people down they say. What are the plans for that? Because a lot of us rely on it.

STEPHEN-          Yes, it’s absolutely vital support as well. And the problem we’ve had with Access to Work is a huge increase in the number of people wanting it and knowing about it. We used to talk about Access to Work as the best kept secret.

EMMA-               It was the best kept secret, yes!

STEPHEN-          Absolutely. But it isn’t a secret anymore. Lots of people have found out about it, quite rightly, and are coming forward to apply. But because it’s a very personalised assessment involved in Access to Work we’ve just really struggled to keep up with demand.

EMMA-               But isn’t personalised really, really important?

STEPHEN-          What I’m hoping we can do is come up with an assessment which is perhaps a bit more rough and ready, a bit less personalised, but can be done more quickly so we can get the help to people more quickly and avoid these terribly long waits that we’re suffering at the moment.

EMMA-               Hmm, but if you’ve met one blind person you’ve met one blind person; if you’ve met one autistic person you’ve met one autistic person – their needs are different, they way they do things are different. How can you make an assessment that covers all when everyone has all these different things going on and different equipment needs?

STEPHEN-          This is what we’ve been consulting on. So, in the green paper, as you say, published in March we announced we wanted to review Access to Work. It hasn’t been reviewed very much since it was introduced in the mid-1990s. So, we want to have a fresh look at it, how we can do a better job, meet the needs of this much larger number of people now coming forward for it. And we have set up a collaboration committee to work with us, together with all the responses that we’ve received from the consultation, to work with us on the detail of how Access to Work ought to look in the future. And we’re planning to announce the results of those deliberations later on this year.

EMMA-               It looks from what I’m reading that you want to move the onus onto employers and to get employers to pay for more of the adjustments and more of the things that disabled people need at work. I mean, I always thought about Access to Work as giving disabled people autonomy and agency around what they need at work, and not feeling like a burden towards their employer; they get the job on their own merits and then they get the support they need outside of their workplace. What’s happening? What’s changing there?

STEPHEN-          Well, employers do have a legal obligation to provide reasonable adjustments to employees who need them. And it is important that employers honour those obligations.

EMMA-               So, let them pay for it. Would that not mean they’ve –

STEPHEN-        –  Well, there is a legal obligation on employers to provide reasonable adjustments, so that is an existing well understood obligation that employers have. And it’s important that that obligation is fulfilled.

EMMA-               Yeah

STEPHEN-          But beyond that there is support that is needed to make work a possibility for many, many people, and that’s what Access to Work is for. What we’ve got to work out is how we can use that funding to support a larger number of people, given that so many people now, more people are coming forward to apply for it.

EMMA-               It needs a quicker fix though, doesn’t it? People are waiting weeks and months for taxi payments, for support worker payments, they’re waiting weeks and months for their grant to be approved. What’s going to happen in the meantime while all these committees are happening?

STEPHEN-          We put a lot of extra staff onto Access to Work to try and get on top of these problems. I think the staff, well over 100 extra staff have moved on to Access to Work. We’ll keep it under review. If there’s more we need to do in the short term then we will. But the key at the moment and the reason we set up this collaboration committee is to come up with a good new model for how Access to Work can continue to do a really good job in the future. And we do have to overcome these very long delays we’ve got.

EMMA-               When will it be fixed though? Because people are actually losing jobs over this. It even feels like rules around Access to Work are changing under the radar. We’ve had reports of people when it comes to their grants being reviewed that they’re getting less support for rules that they didn’t know about or even grants being stopped all together. When will it be fixed so that people aren’t frightened every time their support worker payment comes up that their support worker’s going to leave because they don’t get paid?

STEPHEN-          No, we’re applying the policy as it currently is. We are looking at a future model, how the Access to Work should look in the future, and I’m hoping…

EMMA-               So, the model hasn’t changed recently?

STEPHEN-          The model hasn’t changed, no.

EMMA-               So, why are some people getting less even though they’re the same people in the same jobs, and when they get reviewed why are they getting less support?

STEPHEN-          Well, I don’t know. You’d need to give me one or two examples of the thing that you’re talking about.

EMMA-               Jess Thom, Touretteshero, she works in the arts sector, she’s got Tourette’s syndrome, she’s a very famous performer, and hers was reduced to such a level that she’s not able to work now.

STEPHEN-          Well, I’d be very happy to look it up. I mean, I think there are constraints in what Access to Work can provide. Maybe some time previously they haven’t always been applied. Perhaps they are now being applied. I’ll very happily look at that particular case to see what’s happened there.

EMMA-               Yeah, it’s one of many. Particularly the loudest voice at the moment is the arts sector, but they’ve got quite a loud voice anyway, but I am getting reports from other places about it feels like rules are changing. But also really anxious disabled people just wanting something to be done. You say there’s 100 extra staff, that’s good news and very useful for us to hear. You know, disabled people once they get a job many of us are really anxious about keeping the job and about something happening that’s out with our control that stops us staying in our job.

STEPHEN-          Yeah.

EMMA-               And something happening out with our control is a support worker who’s living hand to mouth, who’s on a zero-hours contract or who’s on a whatever type of contract, just not getting paid, the money not coming in, or employed by an employer and then the money not going to the employer and the employer coming to the disabled person. It’s such a…we’re all very, very passionate about it because we’ve fought so hard to be in job. You want more people into work, I’d imagine you want people to stay in work.

STEPHEN-          We certainly do, and we do need to have an Access to Work system that people can depend on, and that’s what we are determined to provide. The other thing that’s going to happen in the autumn is we’re going to have the report Sir Charlie Mayfield’s Keep Britain Working review, which is specifically about what more employers can do to open up opportunities in their workforce for people who are disabled people with a health impairment. And also how we can support in work people who run into health problems in the course of their employment, because it does seem that far too many people unnecessarily leave their jobs when they run into a health problem. When they didn’t need to if they had a bit of flexibility, a bit of extra support they could have stayed on, and that would have been in everybody’s interests if they’d been able to. So, I think Charlie Mayfield’s report is going to be an important step later this year too.

EMMA-               So, let’s go back to the collaboration committees that have been set up. So, we had the consultation, the pathways to work paper, we had the consultation that closed on June 30th. One of your collaboration committees is the youth unemployment area.

STEPHEN-          That’s right.

EMMA-               And last time you were in I asked you whether people just became disabled when they’re turned 22. And the reason I asked you that was because there was a proposal on the table to only give the health element of Universal Credit to people who were over 22. Now, you have these committees in place now, you have this committee in place, you’ve done the consultation, if people say they don’t want that will that be taken off the table?

STEPHEN-          The argument is that the really crucial thing for young people, including disabled young people, is to have the opportunity for work early in their working life, not to be out of work for a long period, because that does such damage to people. And so could we use, instead of paying the extra benefit for people under 22, could we use that money to deliver more effectively our youth guarantee for disabled young people.

EMMA-               But how would they make ends meet?

STEPHEN-          If we did that then there would certainly need to be some people for whom the health top-up would be provided, because there are some people for whom engagement with our youth guarantee would not be a realistic prospect. For others it may well be that the right thing to do would be to use the money to provide support rather than the cash benefit. We’re looking through the consultation responses at the moment and…

EMMA-               Right, so they’re in and you’re looking through them?

STEPHEN-          Yeah.

EMMA-               And what’s the feeling around this then?

STEPHEN-          At this stage I don’t know. No decision has yet been made.

EMMA-               So, mental health charities have also talked to me about the fact that in the debates around the bill and the SCC, severe conditions criteria where people will get the top amount, the amount that current claimants get for an extended period of time without assessment. There was a lot of talk about constant conditions and all of the time. And people are worried about maybe people who have very bad mental ill health, very mentally unwell a lot of the time but not all the time and cannot work, maybe people with epilepsy and certain types of seizures as well. What happens to people who aren’t the same level of unwellness all of the time, but cannot work because it’s so unpredictable? Where’s their safety net?

STEPHEN-          Well, the question is whether the descriptor applies the whole time. It is not a requirement that the symptom should apply the whole time, but does the descriptor apply the whole time. That’s what determines whether the severe conditions criteria are met. This was a point that came…

EMMA-               That’s the kind of…

STEPHEN-          …up and I think we were able to satisfy them in the debate that actually the arrangements that are in the bill are entirely satisfactory.

EMMA-               Okay, so the descriptor is the area, the type of issue.

STEPHEN-          Yes.

EMMA-               And then there’s the levels within that of whether you can do it all the time or whether you…?

STEPHEN-          Whether you can do it reliably, repeatedly…

EMMA-               Repeatedly, yeah.

STEPHEN-          …and in reasonable time.

EMMA-               That’s right. It’s very hard to remember all the lingo, isn’t it? [Laughs]

STEPHEN-          It is, it is.

EMMA-               Tell me a little bit more about the collaboration committees. They cover five areas, what areas?

STEPHEN-          They do. So, number one, Pathways to Work looking at how we can best use this very, very big commitment the government has made to employment support for people out of work on health and disability grounds, £3.8 billion over the course of this parliament. Absolutely vital that we make the best possible use of that to help people who are out of work at the moment, and we want the collaboration committee to advise us on how best to do that. The second one is on Right to Try. We want people who are out of work at the moment on health and disability grants to be confident about being able to go into a job knowing that if the job doesn’t work out they can go back to their benefits without any disadvantage afterwards. Now, we’ve put that in the legislation. There may well be more we can do I think to enable people to be really confident that they’re not risking benefit support if they take up a job, because we want many more people to be willing to try, able to try a job. Access to Work we’ve talked about. The age of PIP is the other one, whether you could change…

EMMA-               Right, so whether it’s 16 or 18.

STEPHEN-          …16 or 18, that’s right. And the last one is about young people in employment, including this question of the age 22 threshold. But also more widely how we can deliver our youth guarantee for young people across the country. We want to make sure that young people have got the chance to have a job.

EMMA-               Okay. So, how are you collaborating with disabled people on this? What are the committees made up of and how long are they meeting for etc?

STEPHEN-          There are five of them. They’ve got round about ten people on each of the committees. They’ve had their first meeting. They’ll have a meeting two or three hours or so every month between now and October. And at the end of that time we’re looking forward to having their recommendations and ideas for what we should do. Those will be presented to ministers and will be very influential in the final decisions that get made.

EMMA-               So, Stephen Timms, minister of state for disability and social security, thank you for speaking to me on the Access All podcast.

STEPHEN-          Thank you for having me.

EMMA-               If you have anything to say about what you just heard there from the disability minister do get in touch. Our email address is [email protected], and our WhatsApp number is 0330 123 9480. Please subscribe to us if you haven’t already on BBC Sounds, because as you’ve just discovered, you never know when a new episode will drop. See you next time. Bye.